Legislature(1993 - 1994)

02/10/1994 01:00 PM House CRA

Audio Topic
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
txt
                                                                               
              HOUSE COMMUNITY AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS                             
                       STANDING COMMITTEE                                      
                        February 10, 1994                                      
                            1:00 p.m.                                          
                                                                               
                                                                               
  MEMBERS PRESENT                                                              
                                                                               
  Representative Harley Olberg, Chairman                                       
  Representative Con Bunde                                                     
  Representative Cynthia Toohey                                                
  Representative Ed Willis                                                     
  Representative Jerry Sanders, Vice Chair                                     
  Representative Bill Williams                                                 
                                                                               
  MEMBERS ABSENT                                                               
                                                                               
  Representative John Davies                                                   
                                                                               
  OTHER LEGISLATORS PRESENT                                                    
                                                                               
  Representative Jeannette James                                               
                                                                               
                                                                               
  COMMITTEE CALENDAR                                                           
                                                                               
  HB 352:      "An Act relating to the approval of subdivision                 
                plats in areas outside organized boroughs, in                  
                the unorganized borough outside of cities,                     
                and in the third class boroughs; and relating                  
                to the definitions of `street and                              
               `subdivision'."                                                 
                                                                               
                PASSED FROM COMMITTEE                                          
                                                                               
  *HB 398:     "An Act relating to conveyance of certain land                  
                to municipalities."                                            
                                                                               
                PASSED FROM COMMITTEE                                          
                                                                               
  (* First public hearing)                                                     
                                                                               
  WITNESS REGISTER                                                             
                                                                               
  EDGAR BLATCHFORD, Commissioner                                               
  Department of Community and Regional Affairs                                 
  P.O. Box 112100                                                              
  Juneau, AK  99811                                                            
  Phone: 465-4700                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Testified on behalf of the Department                   
                       of Community and Regional Affairs                       
                       regarding the Division of Energy.                       
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES                                               
  Alaska State Legislature                                                     
  Capitol Building, Room 501                                                   
  Juneau, AK  99801-1182                                                       
  Phone: 465-3743                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Prime Sponsor of SSHB 352.                              
                                                                               
  JEFF OTTESEN, Chief of Right-of-Way and Environment                          
  Division of Engineering and Operating Standards                              
  Department of Transportation and Public Facilities                           
  3132 Channel Drive                                                           
  Juneau, AK  99801                                                            
  Phone: 465-6954                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported SSHB 352 and proposed an                      
                       amendment.                                              
                                                                               
  RON SWANSON, Director                                                        
  Division of Lands                                                            
  Department of Natural Resources                                              
  P.O. Box 107001                                                              
  Anchorage, AK  99510-7001                                                    
  Phone: 762-2692                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported CSHB 398.                                     
                                                                               
  JOHN WALSH, Special Assistant to the Commissioner                            
  Department of Community and Regional Affairs                                 
  P.O. Box 112100                                                              
  Juneau, AK  99811-2100                                                       
  Phone: 465-4890                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Provided information on CSHB 398.                       
                                                                               
  RICH WILSON, City Administrator                                              
  City of St. George                                                           
  1600 A Street, Suite 103                                                     
  Anchorage, AK  99501                                                         
  Phone: 272-8684                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported CSHB 398.                                     
                                                                               
  LEE SHARP, Attorney                                                          
  St. George and Aleutians East Borough                                        
  420 L Street, Suite 400                                                      
  Anchorage, AK  99501                                                         
  Phone: 276-1969                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported CSHB 398.                                     
                                                                               
  GARY WILLIAMS, City Manager                                                  
  City of Whittier                                                             
  P.O. Box 608                                                                 
  Whittier, AK  99693                                                          
  Phone: 422-2337                                                              
  POSITION STATEMENT:  Supported CSHB 398.                                     
                                                                               
  PREVIOUS ACTION                                                              
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB 352                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: SUBDIVISION PLAT APPROVAL:UNORGANIZED BOR                       
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES                                          
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                     
  01/07/94      2020    (H)   PREFILE RELEASED                                 
  01/10/94      2020    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/10/94      2020    (H)   CRA, RESOURCES, FINANCE                          
  01/21/94      2124    (H)   SPONSOR SUBSTITUTE INTRODUCED                    
                              REFERRALS                                        
  02/10/94              (H)   CRA AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 124                      
                                                                               
                                                                               
  BILL:  HB 398                                                                
  SHORT TITLE: LAND CONVEYED TO & FROM MUNICIPALITIES                          
  SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) OLBERG                                         
                                                                               
  JRN-DATE     JRN-PG               ACTION                                     
  01/26/94      2153    (H)   READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)                  
  01/26/94      2154    (H)   COMMUNITY & REGIONAL AFFAIRS,                    
                              RESOURCES                                        
  02/01/94              (H)   CRA AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 124                      
  02/01/94              (H)   MINUTE(CRA)                                      
  02/10/94              (H)   CRA AT 01:00 PM CAPITOL 124                      
                                                                               
  ACTION NARRATIVE                                                             
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-7, SIDE A                                                            
  Number 085                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN HARLEY OLBERG called the meeting to order at 1:08                   
  p.m.  He noted for the record Representatives Toohey, Bunde                  
  and Sanders were present and noted for the record a quorum                   
  was present.                                                                 
                                                                               
  Number 112                                                                   
                                                                               
  EDGAR BLATCHFORD, COMMISSIONER, DEPARTMENT OF COMMUNITY AND                  
  REGIONAL AFFAIRS, testified with media present, on the                       
  recent termination of Robert Harris, Director of Division of                 
  Energy.  He stated, "For the record, my name is Edgar                        
  Blatchford.  I serve as Commissioner of the Department of                    
  Community & Regional Affairs, at the pleasure of the                         
  Governor.  Thank you for this opportunity to appear before                   
  you and for allowing me this moment to summarize some of my                  
  thoughts regarding recent developments within the                            
  department, specifically, within the Division of Energy.                     
                                                                               
  "On May 13 of last year, very near the end of the first                      
  session of the 18th Legislature, HCS CSSB 126, passed both                   
  houses and was transmitted to the Governor for signature.                    
  This legislation directed the `dismantling' of the former                    
  Alaska Energy Authority (`AEA') and reconstructed the                        
  general functions of it within the DCRA.  Through the                        
  transition process, this operation has been brought aboard                   
  as a full division, equal in standing to the other three                     
  divisions within the department.  As such, the highest                       
  ranking employee of the division is a director level.                        
                                                                               
  "Enabling legislation was fairly general with little                         
  expressed legislative intent, other than future operations                   
  be `in-line' with existing administrative functions, as                      
  opposed to quasi-autonomous or autonomous, as had AEA been                   
  in the past decade.  Also, it was the expressed intent of                    
  the legislature, as well as a tenant of this administration,                 
  that appropriate functions of the division able to be                        
  contracted out, should be contracted out.  Clearly, this                     
  implies, and I fully support, an added element of scrutiny                   
  over projects under contract.  As a member of the board of                   
  directors for AEA, AIDEA and the Alaska Housing Finance                      
  Corporation, I am well aware of the responsibility incumbent                 
  upon me as a representative of the public finances,                          
  especially in matters of contract and procurement.                           
                                                                               
  "The first and foremost priority in the transition process                   
  called for full integration of the new division into the                     
  department as a whole.  To this end, physical relocation of                  
  former AEA offices into the departments' Anchorage office                    
  was a priority.  Secondly, design of an operating                            
  organization structure was critical.  Throughout the                         
  process, I insisted that there be `no interruption of                        
  services to rural Alaska.'  During this period, I was fully                  
  involved in activity of the RAVEN Commission, responding to                  
  the needs of the rural bulk fuel issue and overall                           
  operations of the department.  Deputy Commissioner Geraghty                  
  was assigned to work with the new division director to                       
  develop firm timelines to accomplish our goals.                              
                                                                               
  "It was my intention to produce a division that could                        
  withstand the budget scrutiny of the legislature during the                  
  FY 95 session and as such, an eye to downsizing, while                       
  retaining all relevant aspects of the division's                             
  responsibility was essential.  Once the operation is up and                  
  fully functioning, following relocation, I will review                       
  operations and determine if this goal was met.  Should the                   
  division be in need of additional personnel or require                       
  modifications to the proposed FY 95 budget, I would express                  
  such concerns with the director and/or the legislature to                    
  make necessary adjustments.                                                  
                                                                               
  "Recent developments within the division, specifically by                    
  the former division director, have forced this issue                         
  prematurely.  I cannot, and will not, tolerate departure                     
  from standard operating procedures when dealing with the                     
  legislative body.  Direct communications by any of my                        
  directors, petitioning or bargaining with members of the                     
  legislature for particular budget increments or increases in                 
  personnel are outside such normal operating bounds.  Each of                 
  you have staffs, entrusted with specific duties and                          
  responsibilities.  Departure from agreed upon conditions,                    
  direct negotiations with other legislators, possibly                         
  compromising your integrity and neutrality, would similarly                  
  mandate immediate action.  Within state government there are                 
  approximately 150 director level positions.  Just imagine,                   
  the chaos and confusion if each were to negotiate particular                 
  `deals' with the legislative body.  I cannot accept this and                 
  experienced staff recognize this is not permissible without                  
  the expressed consent of their commissioner.  This flare up                  
  within my department would be but a mere flame in a                          
  firestorm of political chaos.                                                
                                                                               
  "I asked for Mr. Harris's resignation based upon this, and                   
  this alone.  I respect Mr. Harris's professional integrity                   
  and fully support him in his future endeavors.  I did not                    
  ask, nor did I accept, Ms. Linda Thomas's resignation and                    
  her departure is indeed unfortunate.  I wish her the very                    
  best in her future endeavors and can only give her the                       
  highest of professional respect.                                             
                                                                               
  "Although the downsizing within the Division of Energy has                   
  been met with severe criticism, I withhold comment on                        
  whether or not `we have cut too close to the bone.'                          
  Physical relocation is complete, computer link up is well                    
  under way and I will be reviewing operations to determine,                   
  if as Mr. Harris reports, more staff are needed.  Should I                   
  concur with this recommendation, I will address it at that                   
  time.  If budgets permit, I will accomplish it within the                    
  current budget and upon the approval of the Governor's                       
  office for authority to hire under the current freeze.                       
  Should such a change require legislative approval or                         
  modification or the proposed FY 95 budget, you will be                       
  apprised of my request at that time.                                         
                                                                               
  "I understand the budget dilemmas before the legislature.                    
  This will not be an easy year for any of us or for any other                 
  agency.  Cuts to programs will impact all Alaskans in one                    
  fashion or another.  The frustration expressed by cuts                       
  within the staff of the Division of Energy, or by                            
  yourselves, will be revisited by all of us should operating                  
  budgets be reduced.                                                          
                                                                               
  "I stand by my decisions.  I serve at the pleasure of the                    
  Governor and unless directed otherwise, will continue to                     
  operate my department in a manner consistent with the                        
  Governor's expressed directive to strengthen local                           
  economies, strengthen local governments and improve fiscal                   
  accountability.                                                              
                                                                               
  "I welcome the legislature's interest in my department's                     
  operations.  I pledge to work closely with the Legislative                   
  Budget & Audit Committee review of the Division of Energy                    
  operations.  If there is anything I can do to assist your                    
  staff in this endeavor, please let me know.  I look forward                  
  to working with your committee as we proceed to review                       
  proposed FY 95 budgets and with individual members to bring                  
  resolution to issues within your respective districts.                       
  Thank you."                                                                  
                                                                               
  Representative Williams joined the committee at 1:12 p.m.                    
  and Representative Willis arrived at 1:17 p.m.                               
                                                                               
  Number 300                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE CYNTHIA TOOHEY asked, "Was any of this                        
  evident when you came before the committee on January 18?"                   
                                                                               
  COMMISSIONER BLATCHFORD answered no.                                         
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY continued, "I'd just like to say that                  
  I support your position 100 percent.  You are the person in                  
  charge."                                                                     
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said, "I don't want to be like Will                     
  Rogers, the only thing I know is what I read in the papers                   
  and I appreciate you coming and sharing your perspective                     
  with us so that we have a more immediate source of                           
  information."                                                                
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG thanked Commissioner Blatchford and called                   
  an at ease between 1:19 p.m. and 1:24 p.m.  He then brought                  
  forth SSHB 352.                                                              
                                                                               
  Number 332                                                                   
  HB 352 - SUBDIVISION PLAT APPROVAL:UNORGANIZED BOR                           
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES, SPONSOR OF SSHB 352, read                    
  her sponsor statement and a supporting letter from the                       
  Department of Natural Resources (DNR) aloud: "This is a                      
  relatively simple bill.  Basically, it is to assign a                        
  platting authority for subdivisions that are done outside                    
  organized boroughs where there may or may not be platting or                 
  planning authority in place and even in those municipalities                 
  where they have no planning authority.  This would allow the                 
  DNR to be acting as that planning authority.  Currently all                  
  plats are filed with DNR but they do no review and they have                 
  no authority to do any review.  Currently no legal authority                 
  reviews plats in the unorganized boroughs for compliance                     
  with state Laws.  This means that there is not agency review                 
  of access to each lot, the outcome is that there are                         
  landlocked lots created.  Currently `paper plats' are                        
  allowed to be recorded without being surveyed, HB 352                        
  corrects this oversight.  This legislation requires the                      
  Department of Natural Resources to review plats for                          
  compliance with state law.  There are several definitions of                 
  street and subdivision in various statutes, this legislation                 
  defines them as requested by the Department of Natural                       
  Resources.  And I have a statement here by the Department of                 
  Natural Resources which I would like to read into the                        
  record.  The letter from Harry Noah to myself regarding this                 
  bill.  The Department of Natural Resources supports the                      
  Sponsor Substitute for HB 352, which includes the addition                   
  of the definitions of `streets' and `subdivisions'.  We also                 
  understand that the Alaska Society of Professional Surveyors                 
  also supports HB 352.  They specifically requested that the                  
  bill include the definitions of `streets' and `subdivisions'                 
  as in the sponsor substitute.  These two definitions are                     
  needed to establish a common definition of street and                        
  subdivisions for use by all state agencies that are involved                 
  in permitting and approval of subdivisions.  The lack of a                   
  common definition has made it difficult for surveyors to                     
  meet the requirements of all state agencies.  This bill will                 
  greatly benefit anyone purchasing or having property in the                  
  unorganized borough or third class boroughs.  There is more                  
  and more subdivision activity in our outlying areas.  The                    
  passage of this bill will ensure that land offered for sale                  
  in these areas meets the applicable laws, reduces the                        
  chances of clouded title, ensures proper location of sale                    
  parcels, and ensures that all subdivided parcels have legal                  
  access.  And that is what has prompted me to file this bill                  
  because this summer, I was involved with a plat outside of a                 
  platting area in my district, and I had a little struggle to                 
  be sure that they would include buildable legal access to                    
  these lots.  And it wasn't required of them and all they had                 
  to do was file their plat with DNR.  About noon today, I did                 
  get a position paper from the Department of Transportation                   
  and they had a concern about it and they also provided me                    
  with amendment number two.  I do have an amendment number                    
  one as well."                                                                
                                                                               
  Number 394                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE CON BUNDE said, "The fiscal note, while it's                  
  not substantial, I would like to encourage looking at the                    
  idea that the beneficiaries of these plats pay the cost of                   
  the review by DNR."                                                          
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said, "That's my amendment number one,                  
  and I was aware there was a fiscal note.  I never had any                    
  intentions of having a fiscal note.  I said this should be                   
  revenue neutral.  So I have an amendment that will do that.                  
  To talk about the amount of money, their guesstimate of how                  
  many of these plats they would be doing in a year, how much                  
  the costs would be....It's about $350 per subdivision, per                   
  plat, and that should make us revenue neutral and I will be                  
  getting a new fiscal note as soon as this amendment is                       
  adopted."                                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 414                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE moved to adopt amendment number one.                    
  There were no objections.                                                    
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES addressed the second amendment from the                 
  Department of Transportation and Public Facilities saying,                   
  "(They) have concerns because of the rule that they're                       
  working under right now, that's working quite well regarding                 
  right-of-ways and transferring leasehold interest at state                   
  owned areas.  At the end of the bill it would add `this does                 
  not apply to plats prepared for the Department of                            
  Transportation and Public Facilities for the purpose of                      
  creating or adjusting right-of-way boundaries or                             
  transferring lease hold at state owned airports.'  And this                  
  is to not interfere with what they've got going right now,                   
  and I have no objections to that amendment."                                 
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said, "I assume when they (DOTPF) are                   
  adjusting right of way boundaries for transferring leases,                   
  they have surveyed that property."                                           
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said, "I don't think they do anything                   
  without surveys."                                                            
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE moved to adopt the second amendment.                    
  There were no objections.                                                    
                                                                               
  Number 451                                                                   
                                                                               
  JEFF OTTESEN, CHIEF OF RIGHT-OF-WAY AND ENVIRONMENT,                         
  DIVISION OF ENGINEERING AND OPERATING STANDARDS, DEPARTMENT                  
  OF TRANSPORTATION AND PUBLIC FACILITIES, testified in                        
  support of HB 352 saying, "Yes we do survey all right-of-                    
  ways.  We do survey and we do create a plat document which                   
  gets recorded and records that line in perpetuity.  The                      
  dilemma we have, and we've been having it with the boroughs                  
  too, is that a subdivision is normally a voluntary activity                  
  on the part of the land owner and when we're involved in                     
  condemnation, we're basically trying to coerce somebody to                   
  sign a subdivision that they object to and we're having to                   
  go to court to actually acquire the property and we're put                   
  in a situation where you can't survey the property, you                      
  can't get on it, you can't get them to agree to sign a                       
  document that conveys a document, when their very objection                  
  is they don't want to do this.  So we simply can't proceed                   
  with condemnation and acquire the property which has been                    
  surveyed and platted in advance.  We have to acquire the                     
  property with the court's permission and then go ahead and                   
  do the survey and do the recording.  A number of the                         
  boroughs, as they came out with their individual platting                    
  ordinances were running us through the same problem."                        
                                                                               
  Number 481                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY moved that HB 352 be moved out of                      
  committee as amended with individual recommendations.  There                 
  were no objections.                                                          
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG clarified that there would be a new zero                     
  fiscal note attached to HB 352, which will become a                          
  committee substitute when the amendments are incorporated.                   
                                                                               
  There was a brief at ease from 1:35 p.m. until 1:37 p.m.                     
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG brought forth HB 398.                                        
  HB 398 - LAND CONVEYED TO & FROM MUNICIPALITIES                              
                                                                               
  Number 499                                                                   
                                                                               
  RON SWANSON, DIRECTOR, DIVISION OF LANDS, DEPARTMENT OF                      
  NATURAL RESOURCES, stated, "When I last testified, we were                   
  dealing with the sponsor substitute and I raised several                     
  concerns.  Following that particular hearing I got together                  
  with representatives of the City of Whittier, Aleutians East                 
  Borough, and (the Department of) Community and Regional                      
  Affairs (DCRA), to address those concerns and we did come to                 
  agreement with basically a different bill, which now I think                 
  is embodied in the committee substitute for HB 398.  It does                 
  read a little bit different than what you had before."                       
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE moved that the draft committee                          
  substitute be brought before the committee.  There were no                   
  objections.                                                                  
                                                                               
  MR. SWANSON continued, "Section two has the new rewrite of                   
  the conveyance of tide and submerged lands to various                        
  municipalities.  One concern I think DCRA will bring up is                   
  the definition of municipalities is not included in this                     
  legislation, but we have expanded the intent here to include                 
  all municipalities including boroughs, which is not in the                   
  original legislation.  What we agreed to do is limit the                     
  conveyances to municipalities, to areas that are either                      
  developed for waterfront development or suitable for                         
  waterfront development.  This will provide local control of                  
  particular developments, (and) will limit the liability to                   
  the state because the state will no longer be the landowner.                 
  It will become the municipality's concern.  We do have a                     
  land classification called waterfront development, which                     
  would include what it actually says is `waterfront                           
  development for a variety of activities'.  In order to make                  
  the conveyance, the use of the land could not reasonably                     
  interfere with navigation or public access.  It has to be                    
  classified waterfront development or suitable for waterfront                 
  development and be consistent with the land use plan either                  
  adopted by the state, local municipality, or a coastal                       
  policy counsel.  And the land would be required for the                      
  accomplishment of an improvement or development, and                         
  approved by the municipality.  The application by a                          
  municipality must go through a finding by the director that                  
  it is suitable for those particular activities, and at that                  
  point we also inserted a step in the process                                 
  where...(without patent transference) once we made a finding                 
  that it was in the best interest of the state to convey a                    
  particular parcel of land for waterfront development, we                     
  would make then a conveyance to the municipality where they                  
  could then start issuing leases on that particular property,                 
  without waiting for the survey.  If they did want patent                     
  they would, of course, have to complete the survey and if                    
  there are any conflicts in property rights, of course, they                  
  would have to conduct the survey.  This would get                            
  development properties on line much quicker than what would                  
  otherwise be available."                                                     
                                                                               
  Number 544                                                                   
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG asked, "You're saying now that any                           
  municipality can apply for their tidelands?"                                 
                                                                               
  RON SWANSON confirmed that and said, "...last changes that                   
  we made were that any conveyance under this legislation                      
  would require access to and along easements to be reserved                   
  that are currently required in AS 38.05.127, and that any                    
  land would be subject to the public trust, and if anybody                    
  thought the public trust was being violated you could, of                    
  course, go to court immediately.  And lastly, any                            
  municipality that dissolves, the land would automatically                    
  revert back to the state.  The last thing which I forgot to                  
  mention earlier is, this particular bill would not increase                  
  or diminish a municipality's land entitlement under AS                       
  29.65, but in the same light, any acreage conveyed would not                 
  be charged against that particular entitlement.  I expect                    
  the acreage to be fairly small, but very important though                    
  for revenue generation for municipalities."                                  
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE said, "You mentioned a concern about                    
  defining a municipality.  Do you think we ought to address                   
  that concern?"                                                               
                                                                               
  MR. SWANSON deferred that questions to DCRA.                                 
                                                                               
  Number 574                                                                   
                                                                               
  JOHN WALSH, SPECIAL ASSISTANT, DCRA, testified, "In work                     
  drafts and discussions, we had discussed the expansion of                    
  this bill from strictly municipalities to include boroughs,                  
  so if we're all using the term municipality loosely...it one                 
  day meant just cities, first and second class cities.  If                    
  you would like to expand that definition, I think it would                   
  be prudent to include that in the language here.  For                        
  purposes of clarification, I think it would be in your best                  
  interests to precisely define exactly what you mean by                       
  municipality.  The previous draft had a different                            
  interpretation of that same phrase."                                         
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG asked, "Does your department have a                          
  definition of municipality that includes all municipalities                  
  including boroughs?"                                                         
                                                                               
  MR. WALSH proceeded, "I think for the purpose of this                        
  section...AS 38.05.825, municipality means a home rule,                      
  first or second class city and a home rule first, second or                  
  third class borough and a unified municipality.  So you                      
  could insert that, to this language and it would suffice for                 
  the purpose of this chapter."                                                
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG said, "I think we'll just do that..." and                    
  asked for a motion.                                                          
                                                                               
  Number 595                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY moved that DCRA's definition be                        
  incorporated into CSHB 398 as an amendment and be adopted.                   
  There were no objections.                                                    
                                                                               
  MR. WALSH cautioned the committee, "The burden is going to                   
  be at the director or the commissioner level of DNR to                       
  restrict that, and there's going to be intense pressure upon                 
  that department, and some of these boroughs are quite armed                  
  with legal staff and whatnot, and the pressure upon the                      
  state agency and the attorney general's office could be                      
  overwhelmed.  So I would ask you to consider it in the                       
  intent language, either now or on the floor, what your                       
  express intent is with respect to those phrases, above and                   
  beyond the language in the bill."                                            
                                                                               
  MR. SWANSON said, "I think we've captured the thought of the                 
  land classified for waterfront development.  That's very                     
  clearly laid out in regulation and it also has to be                         
  consistent with the land use plan or comprehensive plan.  So                 
  I think it goes through very exhaustive public process with                  
  what is truly waterfront development.  It's not just a                       
  theory."                                                                     
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE asked, "This would not subtract from                    
  the acreage that the municipality is allowed and my reaction                 
  is why not, as that may encourage more careful consideration                 
  of possible selections."                                                     
                                                                               
  MR. SWANSON said, "That was my original position, that it                    
  would be charged against entitlement.  There were some valid                 
  concerns raised by some of the municipalities of their                       
  limited entitlement.  They need some uplands, some                           
  tidelands, the two kind of come together...because we                        
  restricted it down to actual waterfront development.  Most                   
  of that acreage is going to be pretty minimal."                              
                                                                               
  Number 636                                                                   
                                                                               
  RICH WILSON, CITY ADMINISTRATOR, CITY OF ST. GEORGE,                         
  testified via teleconference in support of CSHB 398, "I'm                    
  pleased to see (this) is being addressed very adequately.                    
  For many years, we've been working in our city to obtain                     
  leases and for various reasons, no fault intended on any                     
  part, but it just takes a long time.  As such, it's limiting                 
  the ability of the public body at the municipal level to                     
  exercise their responsibilities.  I'm pleased that the DNR                   
  and the municipalities proposing this and legislators                        
  proposing this are in agreement on all those key                             
  provisions."                                                                 
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG asked, "If a municipality receives a land                    
  entitlement that adjoins the ocean, does that end at the                     
  mean high tide mark.  Where is the boundary in the land                      
  entitlement now?"                                                            
                                                                               
  MR. SWANSON said, "It's at mean high tide."                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG said, "When we talk about tidelands, we are                  
  talking about land that's underwater half the time perhaps."                 
                                                                               
  MR. SWANSON said, "The definition of tideland is the line                    
  between mean high tide and mean low tide and submerged lands                 
  means...underneath saltwater all the time."                                  
                                                                               
  LEE SHARP, ATTORNEY, ST. GEORGE AND ALEUTIANS EAST BOROUGH,                  
  via teleconference, testified, "In municipal law,                            
  municipality means all municipalities and while it's not                     
  defined in Title 38, it is defined in Title 29.  AS                          
  29.71.800 (13), that encompasses every kind of municipality                  
  in Alaska, but the intent was certainly that it include all                  
  municipalities and boroughs whether home rule or general                     
  law.  As for the concern about all the tidelands within                      
  boroughs, I think about all that means is that boroughs have                 
  more tidelands to select from than you would expect in the                   
  cities, but it doesn't mean they're going to get anymore                     
  because the provision in here...is that tidelands be                         
  required for a project or an improvement.  I don't think                     
  that we should be concerned that the boroughs are going to                   
  be able to abuse this.  As to charging against entitlement,                  
  some cities at this point have no entitlement whatsoever;                    
  these lands are going to come to the municipalities with                     
  some restrictions on them that are not going to be put on                    
  lands that they select under their general land entitlement.                 
  They don't have to be classified for a particular use.  So                   
  if you charge it against that, then maybe you ought to give                  
  them the tidelands without any restrictions on them, but we                  
  know there have to be restrictions on them, so these really                  
  aren't of the same nature."                                                  
                                                                               
  TAPE 94-7, SIDE B                                                            
  Number 015                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE TOOHEY asked, "This fiscal note, does that                    
  reflect the transfer of the lands to the municipalities for                  
  the surveying, and can that be absorbed by the developer."                   
                                                                               
  MR. SWANSON said, "That fiscal note was based on the                         
  original bill, the sponsor substitute, when I was required                   
  to convey all tidelands.  Under this particular bill (CSHB
  398), we will come in with a zero fiscal note because the                    
  people that I am now administering the leases with, I can                    
  just turn around and convey the land to the municipalities                   
  instead of having to administer leases all the time."                        
                                                                               
  There was discussion regarding earthquakes.                                  
                                                                               
  Number 052                                                                   
                                                                               
  GARY WILLIAMS, CITY MANAGER, WHITTIER, via teleconference,                   
  testified, "I'd like to compliment all those who've been                     
  involved in the production of the current committee                          
  substitute.  I believe it meets all the criterion for a good                 
  piece of legislation, because it's good policy to create                     
  legislation which solves problems and creates opportunities                  
  for rural public interest.  This bill provides potential                     
  economic opportunities for all sixteen boroughs in the                       
  state, for at least one first class city and by my count, 49                 
  second class cities.  The conveyance of tide and submerged                   
  lands under this bill will, in my view, not result in                        
  wholesale demand for conveyances and place unreasonable                      
  demands on the ability of DNR to process conveyances.  I                     
  urge a do pass on this legislation."                                         
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE ED WILLIS asked about the significance of the                 
  repealer on CSHB 398.                                                        
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG said, "That is the paragraph 11 of section                   
  1, (which says) `is repealed on January 1, 1998,' they have                  
  until then to get that done and then that expires."                          
                                                                               
  Number 145                                                                   
                                                                               
  REPRESENTATIVE BUNDE moved to pass CSHB 398 as amended out                   
  of committee on individual recommendations with a zero                       
  fiscal note.  There were no objections.                                      
                                                                               
  Number 175                                                                   
                                                                               
  ADJOURNMENT                                                                  
                                                                               
  CHAIRMAN OLBERG adjourned the meeting at 2:03 p.m.                           

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